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You raised the question about possible motives.
:-) I applied the principle of light & dark
cycles in photosynthesis to the question because
one item in your list of possible motives that
was missing was a "harvest." Perhaps of dreams.
See: "To The Point" at line 90.
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-=> Quoting Ric Carter to Guy George <=-
RC> Assuming ETs/UFOs exist, they'd be interested in the Sol system if it
RC> had strategic or resource value - a choke-point for interstellar trade
RC> & travel, refueling from the gas giants, specific minerals to be mined
RC> from asteroids/planets, whatever. Earth would only be of interest if
RC> *we* had some valuable resource here - water, minerals, smog, livers,
RC> silly-putty, whatever. What do aliens want from us?
GG> Maybe they want our REM sleep. I can't think of anything else we
GG> might produce in our 'dark cycle.'
RC> Demonstrate that "aliens want our REM sleep"; otherwise admit that
RC> such is just more baseless speculation, entertaining but useless.
[....]
GG> So even though this sounds like a great theme for a Kilgore Trout
GG> novel, there are a few ideas here that you might find worthy of
GG> considering or expanding on or modifying... or throwing out.
RC> Like I said, baseless speculation - entertainment. If you want to
RC> be more constructive, work up some ideas that are *testable*, eh?
Resolving The ET Question in a Vacuum of Data
---------------------------------------------- Testing a hypothesis is one way
of narrowing the field of possibili- ties to build our theories--you are
certainly correct about this. Theories like the structure of atoms, Classical
Electronic Theory (still flawed in regard to electromagnetism and induction),
the physical appearance and metabolisms of dinosaurs, quantum mechanics, etc.
But simple observation is another method of narrowing the field. And sometimes
even of expanding it. Observation of birds in flight opened our minds to the
possibility of heavier-than-air craft, for example.
And in defense of my speculation regarding 'harvesting dreams' (I forget
exactly what I called it) observation of the force of economics in our
"reality" gives us an indication of the POWER of 'ideas' while the theme and
variations in nature indicates a near-universal principle regarding light and
dark cycles.
In the plant kingdom we see the CO2 consuming v. O2 producing
phases (and interestingly, the O2 is produced in the DARK phase
of photosynthesis!). And even higher animals still need some down
time. (Why?)
All I suggested was that perhaps something was produced for yet a higher being
during the human dark cycle. Sleep. :-)
And what's wrong with some occasional baseless speculation? Here's some
speculation I heard recently :-) which assumed (and perhaps not unreasonably)
that the aliens are as selfish and devoid of consideration for others as humans
are:
RC: Assuming ETs/UFOs exist, they'd be interested in the Sol system
RC: if it had strategic or resource value - a choke-point for
RC: interstellar trade & travel...
Yet these various kinds of creatures have avoided giving us some spectacular
shows as they warred over turf rights overhead... Is this proof that they
don't exist? Is it proof that they DO but are not like US? Or is it proof
that they ARE like us that they don't exist? :-)
However, observing nature, we DO see patterns of competitiveness, ego
(especially in mating season) and greed (found mostly in rodents). So since
this kind of thing happens in the animal kingdom, it 'narrows' the field of
possibilities, lending weight to your theory: IF they exist, they probably ARE
like us. (Pure speculation is now partially supported hypothesis.)
This 'proves' nothing--you are correct. It just allows us to guess better (in
lieu of agreeing on criteria for evidence).
* TO THE POINT: What do we know about the 'collective unconscious?'
Is there any reason to assume it's even a h u m a n s - o n l y
club? And where would we go to find proof, one way or the other?
Even the widely held belief that the unconscious mind exists is
based only on inference.
There IS evidence of UFOs. Even so, I am disallowing it in my
approach here for the sake of common ground. You are not aware
of the proofs, or you have seen them and are unimpressed. So I
am taking Jung's argument that UFOs are possibly a 'manifesta-
tion of the collective unconscious'. I simply assert that the
'reports' CERTAINLY exist!
You raised the question about possible motives. :-) I applied
the principle of light & dark cycles in photosynthesis to the
question because the one item in your list of possible motives
that was missing was "agriculture." A Harvest of some sort.
Possibly something we didn't even know we were
producing? Dreams came to mind because they are so anomalous
compared to the rest of our conscious, willed behavior. :-)
And cows give milk. If they miss a milking they are uncomfort-
able. This analogy is consistent with sleep deprivation.
So maybe it wasn't a GREAT theory. It was at least, as you
suggested, "entertaining." :-) And I bothered to support it so
that someone else might be able to build on it or modify it into
a genuine hypothesis that we COULD test--or maybe find a good
argument against it that will point us in a better direction...
----====----
>>>-------> More, if you have the time...
(Same thread posted to "ALL /Ric Carter")
+------------------------------------------------------------------
| Let's look at the problem of HOW WE DEAL with the discussions #
| of UFO-related phenomena for a moment. As philosopher-types, we #
| might want to address our 'methods' since it seems that we can #
| make no headway in discussions. Discussions that simply will #
| not go away unless we DO address the problems that cause them. #
+-##################################################################
The Evaluating the Sin of Speculation
But... Is there really anything actually WRONG with following these ideas
around the bend once in a while? Someday we might stumble upon some
'speculation' that is so absolutely inspired that it could crack the doors open
to another entire branch of science!
Potential Advantages of Speculation PLUS DIALOGUE to Trim
And look at what we could have done by simply opening our eyes. For example,
birds don't float up and out of the earth's atmosphere when they die. (This we
knew.) And THERE IS SOME REASON they can fly when they are alive. (This we
knew also.) Then comes the speculative phase followed by testing (or maybe
even just researching what else is already known about the phenomena--because
there's a chance the test has already been done). In the end, we have
"heavier-than-air craft. Why did it take so LONG to discover this?
Proving the Negative: Reciprocal Obligation in Logical Debate
Example: Note that C-SETI (the Center for Study of Extraterrestrial
Intelligence) is currently involved in developing programs to communicate with
extra-terrestrials. And they report having had some success in this endeavor
already, which include "fly- bys," and even large craft hovering overhead.
Others who have not investigated their work might speculate that it's "false
witness," however. Is there any specific REASON that pro-UFO arguments
should be on the defensive (as though by definition) while the assumption that
"millions of witnesses including astronauts, policemen, airline pilots, etc.
are lying" is immune to even the most rudimentary statistical examination?
Note that to assume you cannot prove the negative argument in such a case as
this is unfounded prejudice, essentially favoring status quo: This artificially
ends ABILITY to continue examination of what is already known (or has been
reported) on the subject.
Analogy: The carpenters quit building
the house because they say they ran out
of INCHES?!!
Proving the Negative: COOPERATION and Review of Processes
Here's another example of an inadvertent error based on assumptions that
contain a bug. (Starting with proof below.)
Proof: Apples = Fruits; Pears = Fruits
Principle: IF A = C and B = C THEN A = B
Argument: Apples = Pears
There is no GOOD reason that the person taking the opposing stand
in the discussion couldn't help locate a problem in the logic.
Error: The "equals" sign is misused. Apples and
pears are SUBSETS of fruits, not "equal" to fruits.
This is pre-Fuzzy Logic set theory here. Fuzzy
would even allow weighting of probabilities in
evaluating sets of classes that blur (or "fuzz")
into one another such as 'economics' which has
real and imaginary qualities which are (inter-
estingly enough) normally considered mutually
exclusive properties! And though no
one has ever claimed to have "sighted" the value
of a dollar bill, the same kinds of problems
occur in discussions of economics as in UFO-
related phenomena.
Set Theory Implied In Building Science
Furthermore, you realize that at one point there were only four
elements: air water, earth and fire. (The fifth element,
"the quintescence" was a spiritual quality, so let's ignore
it in our discussion of "physics" for now.)
Then as work progressed we even discovered several ISOTOPES of
the various elements that we had previously arranged neatly
according to certain of their properties (see Periodic Table).
U-235 AND U-238 are both still called Uranium though these
"earths" have quite different properties in very important
regards. (I am assuming that producing DEATH in those
handling it might be 'important' enough to qualify as a valid
distinguishing characteristic.)
This argument pertains to set theory and misapplications of
assumptions regarding equality when we might actually be dealing
with subsets (on the one hand) or 'classes' (on the other).
And these kinds of organizational principles (definitions of
sets/classes and subsets) may not all have been identified yet in
the case of UFO sightings, because we have no coherent explanation
for the similarities AND discrepencies in the reports.
This is an observation--beyond mere speculation. It's obvious!
Because even if UFO-related phenomena is the product of wide-
spread delusion, THIS IS IN NO WAY INSIGNIFICANT as a "class" of
human events--yet we keep arguing about the specifics (subsets)
instead of addressing the class (or superset) of experiences.
Why? Because the "delusion" theory doesn't wash either. :-)
BACK TO THE HYPOTHESIS: So then, since we are here discussing possible motives
of alleged ETs, I'd ask you, What do you think the reason is for the dark-cycle
(in plants) and sleep (in animals) that we observe in nature then?
Class: Light & Dark Cycles in Living
Organisms.
Subsets: (Under Investigation)
Is it insignificant that plants, when not producing for themselves are
producing for 'others' during their 'dark cycle'? What then might the
analogous product of animals and especially humans during sleep?
Can't we think in these terms now that we understand that we MAY not be the top
of the pecking order in the universe?
* To The Moderators: This post applies to the problems encountered
in 'discussions' about the existence of ETs and UFOs. It
examines some of the roadblocks that hamper the flow of ideas.
I hope this will be judged to have been on topic for the echo
though philosophical analysis and synthesis can broaden the scope
of discussion significantly because it draws into the discussion
the very processes that lead to logical errors.
The Real Rainbow Sally